Re: 1977 Chevelle Malibu Classic Progress Photo's aka Mali

by jerry46765 Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:37 pm

So is this the same motor as in previous posts where you installed vortec heads?
It's a mid 80s small block with a flat tappet hydraulic cam and production pistons.

Why did you take it back apart?

by 77mali Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:29 pm

jerry46765 wrote:If it's a mid-late 80s block, there will be id number (like 10051184) on the machined surface above the oil filter housing.
Is it a one piece or two piece rear main seal?
Does it have a mechanical fuel pump provision?
Does the crank have a pilot bushing/bearing in it?
What heads are on it? Are they center bolt valve covers?
In reality, heads matter more than block ID once you know it’s at least a 350…

Since you know it's a four bolt main, it sort of defaults it to a truck 350 displacement if it is indeed from late 80s.

Thanks -

Thanks Jerry-
block is cast 14093683, November 1988 casting, assembled in Flint MI December of 88 as far as I can tell.
1 pc rear main seal.
pilot bushing is present.
currently using mechanical pump
center bolt aftermarket RHS 12487 23 degree Vortec heads & manifold too, with some Magmum Rockers

I'm hoping this thing will get to close to 400hp when it's done. If the crank in it turns out to be from GM, then it's a 300 to 330 hp set up (with the original non vortec factory heads from the late 80's...if it's a casting for Mercruiser then someone's played with it already as theirs are not typically found in cars. The difference is in the last digit of the casting an "8" or a "6". I feel like friggin Sherlock Holmes with all this casting numbers crap. My hope was to see if I could piece enough information from the block & other parts therein to see what car it was actually put in so I can get spec's on the cam. I'm not about to disassemble the bottom end as it's in pretty good shape.

jerry46765 wrote:So is this the same motor as in previous posts where you installed vortec heads?
It's a mid 80s small block with a flat tappet hydraulic cam and production pistons.

Why did you take it back apart?

Same motor- head gaskets I bought s@cked. I noticed a leak that was bad enough to trickle oil down the side of the block. Went to a better & slightly thicker gasket. They were both felpro but the 1st set was the blue cheap-o's. For an extra $20.00 the new ones are made much better and better fitment around the RHS heads.

by 77mali Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:30 pm

Mcarlo77 wrote:Thanks for the info, guys!

Paul...is the POR 15 sandable? I've heard much about it, but have never worked with it. My rust was pretty much under the battery tray and fortunately, wasn't rusted through. Just some patches of significant pitting. I was using my Dremel steel wire wheels to clean inside the pits as best I could. Figured I'd maybe use a skim coat of JB Weld to fill them. Might be better to paint some POR 15 instead?

Steve,
Yes it is sandable. I have tried several products over the years that claim to stop rust. So far the Por-15 is the only product I've used that actually does. It actually bonds to the rust, encapsulates it and it likes moisture! When it's humid the stuff will actually cure faster, which is the exact opposite of paint. You can go right over "wire brushed" rust and over the smooth newly-formed rust that occurs in the process that Wally references in his post. The crap is just unbelievable. I think it's cheaper than epoxies also as you only need 10 mils coverage (per coat). It also has a self leveling quality to it. Next big job with it is going to be on Mali's roof but not for a while...LOL.

by jerry46765 Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:09 pm

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but it's not a crate motor.
You have dished pistons.
The GM performance engines were flat tops.

I would not spend too much time researching part numbers.
If the engine had no issues and ran when you got it, it's good to go.

What size are the combustion chambers in the heads?

You can measure the lift of the cam without too much hassle.
If the engine was a high mileage, change the timing chain, and while you are at it change the cam.
Then you know exactly what you have.
Since the block is roller lifter capable, do a hydraulic roller.

I keep saying it over and over, if you don't have one, get a GM performance catalog.
They have pages of power curves showing the differences with certain cams & heads.
Even if you don't use their stuff, you would at least have an idea what certain cam & head combos will add to a basic 350.

Thanks -

by 77mali Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:25 pm

The cam is fine as is & the bottom end as well. Never thought it was a crate motor, they use similar blocks for the ZZ style crates. It's all good anyway from what I've researched so far (unknown cam spec's notwithstanding) it should pull between 350-400 hp. That's plenty for me and the 4 bolt mains will handle it.

Specs for the heads:
http://www.racingheadservice.com/Information/Technical/Heads/TechSheets/12407_IS.pdf

by jerry46765 Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:32 pm

Looks like a nice set of heads.

Oh does it have an aftermarket performance cam already?

by 77mali Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:27 am

I don't think it's after market considering the pistons but there is plenty of lobe to spin. LOL.

by 77mali Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:13 pm

77mali wrote:
jerry46765 wrote:So is this the same motor as in previous posts where you installed vortec heads?
It's a mid 80s small block with a flat tappet hydraulic cam and production pistons.

Why did you take it back apart?

Same motor- head gaskets I bought s@cked. I noticed a leak that was bad enough to trickle oil down the side of the block. Went to a better & slightly thicker gasket. They were both felpro but the 1st set was the blue cheap-o's. For an extra $20.00 the new ones are made much better and better fitment around the RHS heads.

Upon cleaning & tapping, etc... in prep for the heads to be reinstalled I found this at first...pretty good odd side.

1977 Chevelle Malibu Classic Progress Photo's aka Mali - Page 7 P1030417

1977 Chevelle Malibu Classic Progress Photo's aka Mali - Page 7 P1030417

Then went to work on the even side...and found the leak/problem.

1977 Chevelle Malibu Classic Progress Photo's aka Mali - Page 7 P1030418

Maybe the gaskets were just part of the problem...or not...but this definitely is an issue now. Engine shop said they can deck it and bore it out and reuse/reassemble all components but the pistons. If that's the case then I see flat tops in my future. Waiting for the estimate might opt for a block exchange if it's cheaper but I can't imagine how this can be fixed...here's a close up.
1977 Chevelle Malibu Classic Progress Photo's aka Mali - Page 7 P1030419

1977 Chevelle Malibu Classic Progress Photo's aka Mali - Page 7 P1030419

by jerry46765 Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:55 pm

Ouch that sucks.

It's not possible to remove that much material by decking.
You need another block or depending on mileage, another short block.

Are the heads ok?

by BicknellWelding Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:08 pm

Here's a dumb question. Could we just tig weld the low spots and then you have it decked?
( no seriously ) I'm right up the street

by 77mali Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:15 pm

Everything is fine with the exception of that surface between #2 & 6 bores and those 2 piston heads and or rings most likely. The heads are fine, lower end components too...thank Goodness. I am hoping that everything can be reused except the block of course, so might as well make some slight mods with pistons . We'll see what happens when the estimate comes back.

by 77mali Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:20 pm

BicknellWelding wrote:Here's a dumb question. Could we just tig weld the low spots and then you have it decked?
( no seriously ) I'm right up the street

Thank you Phil but I think there's way too much pressure & heat there for a long term solution. Looks like someone already tried some type of repair there already. You really can't tell from the pics- it's much worse in person, LOL. I appreciate the offer though and I'll ask about it with the shop.

by pila Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:37 pm

It's not easy to judge how deep the bad spots in the block are, just by looking at it. It may even clean up at .010 or .012 cut. The machine shop may have a point-type depth gauge to check it. And the pistons can be proud a bit above the block, after a deck cut by the .010 etc, considering the gasket thickness, like around .042 compressed, for example. Many folks run that way, for better quench in the chamber etc.

by 77mali Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:52 pm

pila wrote:It's not easy to judge how deep the bad spots in the block are, just by looking at it. It may even clean up at .010 or .012 cut. The machine shop may have a point-type depth gauge to check it. And the pistons can be proud a bit above the block, after a deck cut by the .010 etc, considering the gasket thickness, like around .042 compressed, for example. Many folks run that way, for better quench in the chamber etc.

I hope it's possible but here's a better pic...what do you think? Looks pretty deep to my untrained eyes. Plus there looks to be a stress fracture that is just starting to border the cylinder. This sucks...it was running real good w/ the vortec set up.

1977 Chevelle Malibu Classic Progress Photo's aka Mali - Page 7 P1030420

1977 Chevelle Malibu Classic Progress Photo's aka Mali - Page 7 P1030420

by jerry46765 Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:41 pm

I just measured the bore chamfer on a TPI block that I use for fitment and it's .085 and unfortunately that groove is past the chamfer.

That sux.

If it ran good on 6 cylinders, think how well it would have run on all 8.

by 77mali Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:33 pm

Thanks Jerry. Yeah, some times you gotta take a lemon & make lemonade.

I found this on youtube, pretty educational. Long but for a novice like myself good to at least see the whole process & get some "lingo" down for upcoming discussions. Very Happy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3r3wRBoXkk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfrYWKi78zc&feature=fvwrel

by 77mali Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:44 pm

BicknellWelding wrote:Here's a dumb question. Could we just tig weld the low spots and then you have it decked?
( no seriously ) I'm right up the street

Phil you ever hear of this company? I researched "fusion welding" and spoke to a very knowledgeable guy in Cali that does it. He said to look into these rods as a possible solution...the #77 Electrode.
http://www.muggyweld.com/?view=castiron

Fusion welding co in California is not a viable option for me as freight is a killer and the GM blocks are plentiful & cheap enough- but if someone had a rare or very expensive build, I can see utilizing this type of repair. Pretty cool, this is their website:
http://www.accastingrebuilders.com/press.html

by pila Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:36 pm

Sorry to say this, but it's a boat anchor, with that depth on the burned area. A real shame...

And don't be too disappointed about finding another block without the 4-bolt mains. For a street engine, 2-bolt mains are fine, and some folks race with 2-bolt mains. The Chevy 400 with the 4-bolt mains aren't considered as strong as a 2-bolt, due to the web thickness in the block casting where the caps are attached, for example....
4-bolt mains are over-rated, according to the race guys I read about. A 2-bolt block with after market 4-bolt caps is much stronger, from the info I read.

by DiscoMalibu Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:51 am

Sorry to see such chaos, that sucks.

On the bright side, we're Chevy guys and parts are plentiful Smile

by 77mali Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:22 am

pila wrote:Sorry to say this, but it's a boat anchor, with that depth on the burned area. A real shame...

And don't be too disappointed about finding another block without the 4-bolt mains. For a street engine, 2-bolt mains are fine, and some folks race with 2-bolt mains. The Chevy 400 with the 4-bolt mains aren't considered as strong as a 2-bolt, due to the web thickness in the block casting where the caps are attached, for example....
4-bolt mains are over-rated, according to the race guys I read about. A 2-bolt block with after market 4-bolt caps is much stronger, from the info I read.

This particular casting with the factory 4 bolt is a good one, they are still available-and not too much $$
http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/results.cfm?singlepart=1&partnumber=10105123

@ Disco- Thanks. It is what it is but I will prob upgrade the cam & pistons too to go w/ my heads. The engine shop I'm using has a dyno- & a state of the art shop. They specialize in race motors and have built some beauties from flat-heads to marine race engines, so I'm actually kind of excited. My only concern now is if my old leaky THM 350 will have to go or be rebuilt too. Might have to focus on bodywork for a bit while I save some cash for this build...the thing that stinks is that it would have been driving this summer. Oh well, just have to hope for the best I guess.

by ant7377 Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:00 am

Paul,thats too bad -sucks.If you want I can keep an eye out for a block ,thats a 400 right ?

by 77mali Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:17 am

Ant- Thanks! It's a 350. I'll let you know- waiting still for engine shop estimate w/ core exchange but I'm also hunting on Craigslist, LOL.

by BicknellWelding Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:30 am

You could always pick up a running motor, just to get it moving. I pulled a 305 out of a blazer for Ethel, while my 350 is on the stand. I can at least drive it for now. Then you could build your motor and not be under a time restraint. And build something crazy for the future while still enjoying your car.

Found a block locally too. If you need one.
chevy 350 4 bold main short block (middleton) $300

http://boston.craigslist.org/nos/pts/3048501030.html

But like I said,I'm right up the street if you need a hand with anything.

by 77mali Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:55 am

Thanks- appreciate the offer, Phil.

by pila Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:56 pm

The new block you linked is a great way to go, even though it's a bit pricey. I see that Summit has a '96 through '2000 block for $651, that been machined for a 383 stroker (which you don't necessarily need to do). It's decked for a clean up, bored +.030, on a 4 inch bore, with line honed mains (4-bolt) and line honed cam bore etc, and comes with the 1-piece rear seal & freeze plugs..and painted black. It accepts roller or flat tappets etc ..
Probably a decent price. Machine work on a block isn't cheap either of course, if you do find another used block.

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