Re: 1977 Chevelle Malibu Classic Progress Photo's aka Mali

by ant7377 Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:21 pm

Ok,as long as you have something in there.

by 77mali Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:28 pm

Yeah...Joe Gibbs "BR" break-in oil (!@#$% $10.00/quart x 6) I have to use an extra qt with the high volume oil pump.

by pila Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:34 pm

What does the pump have to do with oil capacity ?
Did I miss something ?

by 77mali Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:37 am

pila wrote:What does the pump have to do with oil capacity ?
Did I miss something ?

The extra quart will insure that there is always enough oil @ the bottom for the pump to draw. I guess the 25% more volume that it moves can take longer to descend back down into the pan, especially @ higher RPM. IDK...I just did what he suggested.

by 77mali Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:02 pm

Well...my valve cover thing worked ok (still spilled enough oil to cause a little smokage). But I got one side done & have the correct cover on it. Hopefully get to the other side sometime soon but here's a couple vids. The second one is short, just showing the spin on the flywheel (holy crap was Bill right on the money w/ that!) Hope U enjoy, I am.

by pila Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:29 pm

Don't know if you used one, but I always use the little baffle plate that goes between the oil pump & the block. It keeps the oil from climbing up the back end on hard acceleration.
When I first put the 406 in my '77 Elco, on a hard launch, the oil light would blink on for a second. The fix for that was the little baffle plate. I also always use the lifter valley baffle, which keeps most of the hot oil off of the bottom of the intake manifold. Cheap little items that are worth using....
Are you using a windage plate ?

by 77mali Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:53 pm

Now you tell me...LOL.

The oil is hot as a mutha...Might do the lifter baffle. The intake is easy enough to remove & reset. With the aluminum intake it gets hot pretty quickly, it's def a good idea.

No windage tray & no plans for one the lower end is cool & the pan has a shelf on it, kind of like a tray, less the sump end- that's open. I'm getting about 70psi @ 2000 rpm on the oil. The temp only got up to 160-170 during the lashing...took about 5 minutes though. When I break in the cam I think I'm going to rent a large commercial fan, as was suggested.

by 77mali Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:13 pm

Set initial timing & tuned the carb a bit, seems to be running well. I'm still getting chatter up at the rockers. I'm pretty confident that the lash is set well but after running it for about 3-4 minutes decided to quite the break-in because of the noise up top.

Anyone else running Magnum roller rockers that can shed some light on why this might be? I'm starting to get an inclination to switch back to flat tappets or maybe look at some alternative hold-down nuts & pivot-balls if that would help. What a Face

by ant7377 Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:10 pm

Paul,when i had roller rocker on my regular Chevy heads (not vortec) the made a little noise too that annoyed the piss out of me.

by 77mali Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:33 pm

After a little research online I discovered that it might be the guide plates for the rocker studs. Ima be callin' Comp Cams tomorrow for an explanation of why this is. Dang it.

I took off the valve covers and it seems I'm getting a bit of "valve stem side loading". Simply put, something in the geometry is off and the rocker tips are not perfectly centered on the valve tips. The tighter you go on the lash- (even a quarter turn extra) the worse it gets too; I'm probably going to have to modify them. Ugh.

by Joe73 Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:21 pm

Did you check pushrod length while assembling the engine?

by 77mali Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:50 pm

Yes, they're the correct length. Everything is fine except for when they rest on the valve tips, they're off center.

It's not quite this bad but- this is what's happening, even though this guy's build is a roller set up. It's either the guide-plates or the machining on the surface of the heads where the studs go on. I'm guessing it's the plates but who knows.

Third pic fro the bottom shows it:
http://www.corvette-restoration.com/restoration/motor_and_transmission/060702_piston_valve_clearance.htm

by 77mali Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:22 am

Joe- Thanks for planting that seed.

Yesterday I tried a couple of things to see if I could get a better result. I removed the guide plate on the number 3 cyl to see what it would look like as compared to what I'm getting now. It seemed to help quite a bit but still they're off center, just not as much.

After that I set the rockers on the studs with just the folcrums & no nut with the rods at the proper position to start the lash procedure & they still sit off center a bit this way too. The Magnum rockers I have require guide plates in order to have proper alignment. So...after speaking with Comp Cams for a while yesterday, it would seem the length of the rods ARE off slightly. I either have rods that were incorrectly packaged (according to the engine shop- not sure I believe this) but he claims to have checked length in his shop or the shop did not check it or gave me the wrong size. Regardless, I have a pushrod checker coming & am going to verify what's what now.

by pila Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:50 pm

I've used the Magnum roller rocker arms since they came into production, but haven't ever used guide plates. To me, they are a good replacement for stock rocker arms.
Don't really understand why you are having alignment issues from rocker tips to valve tips.....
I always figured that guide plates were for high RPM engines etc, so I didn't ever use them.
The Comp Cam folks should be able to help you figure it out......
The engine sounds great by the way ! Very Happy

by Joe73 Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:55 pm

No problem. Are you.running a non stock head? If so. You have to check pushrod length. I have a checker waiting for when i pick up some aluminum heads. Glad your onto something with the problem.

by 77mali Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:38 pm

Thanks guys, the exhaust side sounds good anyway, LOL.

I think it's the length of the rod. It seems a bit long maybe @ 7.80", which is a common Chevy SB stock size. The heads are aftermarket & have a 1/2" or so hole tapped for the rods. Some heads come with those holes tapped much larger which would require the use of guide plates. I think I can go either way really but without guide plates I think you should use either a "non self adjusting" rocker arm which would be the type used with poly-locks or regular stock style flat tappet rockers.

Bill do you have a photo of your valve assembly you could e-mail me? I know it's a BB Caddy but I'd like to see how you have it set up. Thanks.

by pila Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:04 pm

Don't know if this pic would help you. These are the Magnum rockers for a FORD, on studs, mounted on a bar. It's a mod to do away with the weak stock Caddy rocker arms.
1977 Chevelle Malibu Classic Progress Photo's aka Mali - Page 21 P1010981_zpsb781655e

1977 Chevelle Malibu Classic Progress Photo's aka Mali - Page 21 P1010981_zpsb781655e

I didn't know your push rod holes in the heads were opened up to where you needed guide plates. If your rockers are off-center on the valves, maybe the guide plates aren't for that set-up, or the mounting holes in the guide plates aren't in the right place for those heads.
Just some ideas....

by 77mali Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:22 pm

Bill thanks for the pic, that helps (yours are definitely centered LOL). Those are the same type of rockers I have, mine are 1.52's. The holes in my heads are small, they'd fit both 5/16 & 3/8 rods.

by pila Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:23 am

These rockers are 1.7 ratio, while the stock Caddy rockers are 1.65. Not a lot of difference. The stock rockers don't hold up with high lift cams, & break the stands etc.
I had to mill the push rod slots in the heads longer because of the rockers & cam lift etc.

I guess I don't understand your mis-alignment problem at this point...

by 77mali Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:11 pm

Well it's like this,
RHS Heads (Cast Iron)- 170 cc Intake runner, 64 cc Chamber, Straight Plug
1.94 Stock length Intake Valve, 1.50 Stock length Exhaust Valve
742 Retainers, 601 Valve Locks, 529 Valve Seals

Valve Springs- #981 (these are stronger than stock springs, Comp says no to stock springs w/ this cam).

Studs 3/8" ARP
#4808 Guideplates
#CL 12-238-2 Kit which includs:
Cam Part # 12-238-2, XE 262 H (1300-5600 RPM)
with Hydraulic Lifters # 812

From Comp Cams web catalog for the XE 262 H:
Note #7: Stock Springs can not be used.
Note #52: Engines with self aligning pushrods must use kit #1417-16 (Not an issue because, guide-plates).

Pushrods- Magnum 7372 5/16" x 7.80"
Rockers- Magnum 1412 (self aligning type- no tabs on the sides of rocker tip) 1.52 Ratio (slightly more than stock).

According to their website & tech dept- those are all the typical parts for the build. I s/b good to go after checking the pushrod length, which I'm going to do tomorrow. I have a feeling that they're too long but that's what the site recommends for the cam. So WTH? I don't know & don't care...if pushrods are the only issue, I'll be happy. Very Happy

I figure the root of the problem lies in the deck heights of the block and the heads & that's why the rods don't quite work.

It was cold as heck here today...Brrrrrr. I hate "Pre-winter".

by pila Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:33 pm

I guess I don't get the push-rod length having to do with the push rods being off-center. The guide plates are supposed to align the push rods with the rockers. I don't understand why Comp Cams tech thought the push rod length had anything to do with alignment.
Personally, I think the guide plates are wrong, for a different head etc.....
RHS heads are owned by Comp Cams I believe (?)

On stock heads, the push rod slot in the head is what aligns them with the rockers, which is quite simple....
Are they all off in the same direction ? Or off in different directions ?

by 77mali Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:50 pm

The rocker tips sit off center of the valve tips. The wear pattern is wrong as per the "magic marker" method. That could prove to be the case too Bill. I plan to loosen the studs so as to adjust the guide-plates too if necessary. I'm getting some wear like pic #4A in the following link. It could be a combination of the two also- Comp Cams does make a two piece flat guide-plate if that proves to be the case.

http://www.lunatipower.com/Tech/Valvetrain/HowToVerifyValvetrainGeometry.aspx

& to answer your question- the exhaust rockers all lean a bit left & the intakes lean to the right. This is all fractions of an inch but without the valves going straight, that will make for a very short life span for the valve seats or worse.

Think I'm also going back to a stock oil pump. I discovered that Comp recommends an oil deflector when a high pressure or hi volume pump is used. The concern is oil not getting to the fulcrums & rockers consistently. Not only that but I didn't realize that it would put all this extra stress on the lifters & rods. The lifters I have are normal stock type so not really a good match. Still going with something with the bolt in screen/pickup.

by 77mali Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:10 pm

Going w/ a slightly new set up on the valve train. Comp Cams was SUPER & VERY helpful.

New Stuff: #4602-16 Poly Locks, #4505-16 Studs & #4835-16 Guide plates (2 pc Adjustable). RETURNING: #4808-8 Guide plates & #7372-16 Push Rods. After all that I'll owe them about $20.00 and I'll still have to order new Push Rods once I verify the correct length.

The builder provided 7.80" push rods but they were too long. The studs were ok but I decided to go with Comp's studs (made by ARP) because the builder gave me a "generic" brand by Liberty Engine parts. I think those studs would have been fine with the old cam not this XE cam. I think the new length will fall between 7.60 & 7.70" to get it perfectly centered on the valve tips.

Here's a pic of the "magic marker" method for centering the rockers. The left one was with the 7.8" rods, the right was done with the checking push rod, still not 100% perfect but getting there. No sense doing anymore until I get the new parts to mock it up. The goal is to have a centered line & have it as "skinny" as possible.
1977 Chevelle Malibu Classic Progress Photo's aka Mali - Page 21 P1050610

1977 Chevelle Malibu Classic Progress Photo's aka Mali - Page 21 P1050610

Also got one of these help with the adjustment & cam timing.
1977 Chevelle Malibu Classic Progress Photo's aka Mali - Page 21 P1050611

by 77mali Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:55 pm

Best result after fooling around w/ the checking pushrod. The combo of the new guide plates & polylocks helped big time with the geometry of the valve train. Rockers are sitting where they should & I have new slightly shorter rods on order. 7.70" vs 7.80". It doesn't seem like much I know but for whatever reason this combo seems to be doing the trick. I was told by Comp Cams that the old guide-plates I was given are better for the older stock non vortec cylinder heads. Only bummer is that the new studs I got did not have enough thread to properly lash the rocker & pushrod checker. My old ones are a bit shorter but have more affective thread length so I'm reusing them.

1977 Chevelle Malibu Classic Progress Photo's aka Mali - Page 21 P1050612

1977 Chevelle Malibu Classic Progress Photo's aka Mali - Page 21 P1050612

1977 Chevelle Malibu Classic Progress Photo's aka Mali - Page 21 P1050613

by 77mali Tue May 13, 2014 8:12 pm

Wow, it's been over four months. What a crappy winter we had, not able to do much at all.

About a month ago I swapped the oil pump/pick-up back to a stock unit. The Melling Select HV (+25%) pump is for sale if anyone is interested & maybe building a race engine. (It's run for about 2-3 minutes in total)

Stock pump & pick-up:
1977 Chevelle Malibu Classic Progress Photo's aka Mali - Page 21 P1050721

1977 Chevelle Malibu Classic Progress Photo's aka Mali - Page 21 P1050721

Melling unit:
1977 Chevelle Malibu Classic Progress Photo's aka Mali - Page 21 P1040910

Here is the new set up with the poly-locks, they're pretty awesome & well worth the little bit extra money. Makes lashing the rockers/valves pretty easy.
1977 Chevelle Malibu Classic Progress Photo's aka Mali - Page 21 P1050614

1977 Chevelle Malibu Classic Progress Photo's aka Mali - Page 21 P1050614

I finally got out there again over the weekend, put it all back together & fired it up cuz I was curious to see how the lash would sound after all the tweaking. I'm finally happy, it sounded great- Roared to life (literally) & hummed like a factory full of sewing machines. It was loud as heck since I didn't bother to install the mufflers, only ran it for about 30 seconds ... break-in procedure this weekend if it doesn't snow or anything.

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